The Exeter Times-Advocate, 1964-04-02, Page 1HORACE GREENSTREET SHOWS CONCERN OVER PAYMENT FOR. NEW HOUSE IN KIRKTON
GB moves
for water
Ninety-second Year EXETER, ,Qt/TApp, APRIL. 2, 1964 Price Per Copy 10 Cents
A delegation.from Grand.
Bend, •coexisting of Dr, E. A.
McKee*, Campbell Cliapman
and councillor EmmereonDee-
lerdirte, interviewed officials of
Department of Highways, the
OntarioOntario WMuelneTrtpaleigliPr4cleacnciptml! •
mission Toronto. Wedeeeday.
Dr, McMaster, :who is ehair- Future cot vocational program
mail of the citizens" water come
mittee, arranged with Hop, C.
S. MacNaughton the meeting
with the highway efficials to
get peemiesion to lay water
mains along No. 21 before the
new road surface is laid this
spring.
They approached the menicie
pal board for permission to
borrow the money to instal the
Water mains. Then they visited
the OWRC to get the approval
of the proposed Stirrat water
system to the village.
RON BOARDS FACE DECISIONS
Where is Huron's vocational
education program. heeded?
No one seems to know, but all
agree the course will have to be
set soon.
The four-board co-operative
program centred at Clinton en-
joys a temporary calm at the
moment but it soon will face a
small tidal wave for which it
must be prepared. If it flound-
ers, the student wave may up-
set it the year Canada will cele-
brate her centennial.
Crux of the problem is ac-
commodation for students inthe
new business and tecenology
courses, where to provide it
Victim of London lawyer
may have faith restored
Ausable talks
plans for darn
A Kirkton retired farmer's
faith in the legal profession may
be restored this week after talks
with the Law Society of Upper
Canada.
Horace Greenstreet, who lost
much of his life savings through
a lawyer who embezzled trust
funds, may get his money back
through the voluntary compen-
sation fund administered by the
society in Toronto.
Wednesday, if he saw society
officials in Toronto as he plan-
ned to do, he'll receive assur-
ance that his problem will be
dents, had been suggested to
the AVC but it was not ac-
cepted.
The smaller addition as-
sumes that the grade nines in
the major vocational courses
will remain in their home
schools; the larger one that
they eventually go back to Clin-
ton.
For the record, the boards
have decided to keep these grade
nines in the home schools until
1967 only. Nothing has been
egreed upon beyond that point.
It's known that both Goderich
and Exeter favor the smaller
unit, and keeping the grade
nines at home.
In addition, Principal H. L.
Sturgis recently recommended
to South Huron board that it
should consider the establish-
ment of a limited vocational
school after 1968. Goderich has
talked about extending its busi-
ness and commercial courses,
particularly typing in which it
specialized before the vocation-
al program came into effect.
30000
29000
2800 0
27000
26000
25000
24000
23000
21000
21000
10000
15000
Executive of the Au sabl e
River Conservation Authority
spent most of Tuesday after-
noon discussing details in re-
gard to the Parkhill Dam.
Final drawings for the mil-
lion dollar structure are ex-
pected to be completed by the
end of April, after which tend-
ers may be called.
The executive learned that
land purchase Is progressing
but some expropriation may be
required. A survey of the land
required is being made.
A brief outlining the closures
and relocations of municipal
roads is being prepared for
presentation to McGillivray,
East and West Williams town-
ships, for their approvals. EXETERwt DISTRICT
CE's future
bright one?
and how much.
Some of the answers may
come Within the next two weeks
from meetings of the eiSDIIS and
the joint advisory vocational
committee. More may have to
be provided by a meeting of all
the boards.
Essentially, the major de-
cision rests with the Clinton
board. How big should the ad-
dition be that it has to erect
next year?
But behind that decision lies
a number of important ques-
tions.
1. Will the home boards con-
tinue to keep the grade nine
students of the four-and five-
year business and technology
courses indefinitely, or for only
a temporary period as was con-
templated last year?
2. Will Huron South at Exeter
develop a limited vocational
program or stick to the aca-
demic course only?
3. Will Goderich expand its
business and commercial
courses, as it has suggested
it might, or will it use the Clin-
ton facilities for this training?
4. What proportion of the stu-
dents will take the business and
technology courses in the fu-
ture?
The answers won't be easy to
come by but they'll have to be
made soon, BACK RESOLUTIONS
The executive supported two
resolutions from the Credit
Valley authority, one protest-
ing off-shore drilling for oil
and gas 'in Ontario lakes.
The resolution requested the
minister of energy resources
to prevent such drillingbecause
of the pollution it causes.
Another resolution, a skin g
for tax relief on swampy land,
was also endorsed by the Aus-
able group. It called for partial
or complete relief of municipal
levies on swamp land to "en-
courage their retention in their
natural state".
Chairman Freeman Hodgins,
Parkhill, presided for the meet-
ing in the authority office here.
that one less classroom, will be
needed under the present pro,.
gram.
Chairman Johns indicated
this week he felt the extra
classroom should be provided
anyway. "It won't take us long
to fill it," he said.
"VERY VAGUE"
Garnet Hicks, the IISDHS re-
presentative on AVC, admitted
this week the overall plans re-
garding accommodation "are
very vague at the present time".
"At our AVC meeting a month
ago, the Clinton boys wanted to
go for the 540-student addition,
but the rest of us were a.gainst
this move,"
"Goderich is definitely op-
posed to the bigger addition
and, although our board hasn't
made any decision, the mem-
bers have indicated sim liar
feelings here."
He said the travelling to Clin-
ton has posed a problem for
students in this district. "We
have had quite a few complaints
about it — Ws quite a long haul
every day".
Still other views were ex-
pressed by Edward Dearing,
chairman of the Seaforth board
who is also head of the AVC
committee, He confirmed the
AVC has made only one re-
commendation—that of the 380-
student addition. The suggestion
of a 540-student addition came
from a member, not the board
as a whole, he stressed.
He discounted suggestions
that Exeter and Clinton were
considering some expansion in
the vocational field. "Both of
these schools", he said, "have
signed agreements with Clinton
to send a certain percentage of
their student population to the
vocational courses at Clinton.
—Please turn to back page
NO INFORMATION
leSDHS Chairman Kenneth
Johns, contacted this week, said
he has received no information
from Clinton in regard to policy
decisions.
He revealed, however, that
the district board will have a
special meeting Thursday with
its architect to discuss plans
for the proposed addition here.
He expected some decisions will
be made at that time.
Originally it was proposed to
provide four classrooms, a
science room and a shop in the
addition to HSDHS which must be
ready by September. At the
last meeting, however, Prin-
cipal Sturgis reported that 30
more students plan to go to Clin-
ton than he had anticipated and
fairly dealt with,
"I hope we can get it straight-
ened out," said Mrs. Greene
street, whose anxiety has been
building up since last year.
"It may take a little time,"
said Kenneth Jarvis, deputy
secretary of the society in Tor-
onto, "but if this ie a legiti-
mate claim, as it appearstobe,
I think we can assist Mr. Green-
street. This sounds to me like
the very type of thing for which
the compensation fund is de-
signed."
The amount involved is $22,-
000 , the price which Green-
street received for his farm on
the southeast boundary of Us-
borne. The sale to Yundt and
McCann Construction Limited,
Stratford, was agreed to last
August and the firm took pos-
session of the buildings this
week, Tuesday, March 31.
But while the firm has the
deed and has paid the $22,000
price, the farmer hasn't re-
ceived his money. The check
was cashed by Earl H. Slater,
the London lawyer now serving
five years in jail for embezzle-
ment,
"It seems funny to drive by
the farm and realize it's no
longer yours but you haven't
received a dollar for it."
"The worst of it was," re-
calls Mr. Greenstreet, "that I
got that fellow (Slater) for my
protection". He had dealt with
the London lawyer before, found
him to be a "smart man", and
felt he should protect himself
over the sale since he wasn't
familiar with the buyer. This
was back in August.
Greenstreet pressed for his
money but was "put off" several
times. Finally, he recalls, he
was told by Slater: "Horace,
I can't pay it. You can shoot me
if you like, but I haven't got
the money."
The farmer started proceed-
ings then, and he was one of
a number of others, including
several conservation authori-
ties in the area. A subsequent
audit revealed some $138,000
missing from trust funds
handled by the lawyer.
At the first trial, Slater was
given an 18-month jail sentence.
The attorney general's depart-
ment appealed the decision and
the penalty was raised to five
years.
Tuesday, before he left for
Toronto, Mr. Greenstreet was
understandably disturbed. "The
public should be protected. If
lawyers are going to carry on
business like this, my advice to
others is to get the cheque in
your hand before you turn over
any deed or papers."
— Please turn to back page
fo*thyise
runD DRIVE
'Now it's up to the $25,000 mark'
Swimming pool fund thermometer, erected this week in front
of the post office, already is out of date, according to members
of the committee. Co-chairman G. A. Webb, left, points out to
finance chairman R. E. Pooley that the ',mercury" should be
up to $25,000. The committee hopes to let contract by April 15,
in order to have the pool ready by the time school is out. In
answer to recent enquiries, Dooley stressed the pool facilities
will be available to district residents. "Our swimming program
has always been open to Usborne, Hay and Stephen children and
it will continue to be when the pool replaces the pond," he said. County council balks
over PS involvement
Harvey Langford Day
'Twas a grand celebration in Lucan
A plaque from the Lions Club.
A crystal bowl from the WO-
AA.
Cigarette holder and lighter
from the Lucan-Ilderton Com-
bines.
Pen and pencil set from vil-
lage council.
Fay Featherstone presented
Mrs. Langford with a large
bouquet of red roses.
Wilf r e d Hodgins, who has
looked after the ice since the
arena opened, was presented
with a picture of himself.
The memorable day closed
with a hockey game between
the old timers, Lucan and Mild-
may, which ended 4-3 in favor
of Mildmay,
— Please turn to back page
"HAVE TO HUSTLE"
"We're going to have to hustle
these plans right along if we
want to be ready by September,
1965," says John Lavis, chair-
man of the Clinton board. "On
the other hand, we must have
the right answers before we go
ahead. We don't want the same
problem we had last year, when
we found our vocational addition
was overcrowded as soon as it
was built. Nor do we want a
lot of empty rooms up here at
Clinton."
Lavis explained the Clinton
board has been spending most
of its time trying to solve
other problems, including pur-
chase of more land and ways
of spreading capital expendi-
tures among the four boards.
"We've already had a lot of
special meetings this year,
some of them lasting until 2:45
in the morning," he revealed.
What further complicates the
problem is that the Clinton
board, although at the centre
of the program, doesn't feel it
should take the initiative in de-
cisions. "We've always tried to
take the attitude that we should
not say too much because we
don't want to be accused of
trying to run the show", states
Lavis.
That suggests a problem of
leadership in one of the most
important areas of public ser-
vice.
RECOMMENDATION
The AVC — advisory voca-
tional committee which includes
reps from all four boards — has
recommended that a 16-unit ad-
dition be erected to'accommo-
date 380 pupils in 1965.
An alternative proposal of a
23-unit addition, for 540 stu-
'Story should be told
across the province'
8. Baseball team 1933, Art
and Harry McLean.
9. Olympic hockey team
1963, Paul Conlin and Bruce
Haskett.
10. Fay Featherstone (Miss
London), David Stanley.
11. Arena ladies, Mrs.
Sheridan Revington.
12. Hockey team 1953, Fred
Revington, Jim Freeman and
Clare Stanley.
13. Midget team, Paul Con-
lin and Jim Freeman.
14. Clint Hodgin's Horse,
Reg and Jerry Paul.
Paul Conlin, a Lucan boy,
who began his hockey on the
home rink, spoke briefly on his
experience as a member of the
Olympic team this year.
Fay Featherstone, who won
the title of "Miss London"
spoke of meeting Miss Miriam
Martin in Toronto in the com-
petition for "Miss Canada".
Miriam's father was born and
raised in Lucan but she was
unable to be present last Sat-
urday. She won the title of "Miss
Winnipeg" and was runner-up
for "Miss Canada".
Bob park of Hanover extend-
Hodgins, reeve of Biddulph
and Harry Ward, a London
township councillor, all of whom
spoke briefly.
Between the two windows to
the left of the kitchen had been
built a 10'x5' glass case in-
scribed "Irish Leaders Make
History", in which had been
veiled 14 pictures. Above, ex-
tending from wall to wall was
another glass case, approxi-
mately 25' by 2'; in which were
displayed the 10 hockey and
baseball trophies.
The following were the pic-
tures unveiled with the names
of those assisting.
1. Erwin Scott, his grand-
daughter Elizabeth Hill.
2, BaSeball team 1905, Er-
win Scott.
3, Baseball team 1922, Har-
old Hodgins and Harry Ward.
4. Baseball team 1903, Fred
and Harvey Revington.
5. H. B. Langford, brother
Fred Langford. ,
6. Clint Hodgins, Mr. and
Mrs. Ray Hodgins and Elaine.
'1. HoWard Rosecroft (race
horse), Mrs. Sheridan Roving-
ton and Gary.
March 28, 1964 was probably
the biggest Red Letter Day for
the Lucan Community Memorial
Centre, since its official open-
ing, June 14, 1950.
It was the H. B. Langford Day
when his Lucan and district
friends, as well as former Lu-
canites from Ottawa, Toronto,
Burlington, St. Catharines, Nia-
gara, Hanover, Sarnia and De-
troit, all met to do honor to a
man who for a lifetime served
the community centre and his
village.
The attendance so far ex-
ceeded expectation that the
arena ladies ran out of food
for their smorgasbord dinner.
Art McLean, now of London,
who is, and always will be, an
ardent Lucan fan, was MC for
the afternoon program. He was
assisted by Bob Murray of Lu-
can, who was MC for the even-
ing's presentations. To these
two men, and their committee
goes credit for a most suc-
cessful Undertaking.
Before the unveiling of the
"Hall of Fame", Reeve Ivan
Hearn introduced Tom Hall,
reeve of McGillivray, Wilson
Could RC AF Station C entralia
become the centre of officer
training for Canada's new in-
tegrated armed forces?
There's no way of knowing,
of course, but the possibility
may exist under the White Paper
plans presented by Defence
Minister Hellyer in Ottawa last
week,
The air force's development
in consolidating officer training
at Centralia could be the pattern
followed when the integrated
forces are established. Since
air force training methods are
generally recognized as the best
among the armed services, it
may be that Centralia will be
the centre of all officer selec-
tion and indoctrination in future
That's mere Conjecture.
Hellyer's white paper outlines
the r adic al development in
broad terms only and deals with
how the forces will be integrat-
ed at the top. There's nothing
in it Concerning specific es-
tablishments outside of defence
headquarters.
Group Captain L. H. Randall,
commanding officer at Cen-
tralia, confirms: "Really, we
have no idea, or no way of know-
ing, as to what way, if any,
this station would be affected".
There's been no suggestion, he
said, as to how or where of-
ficers would be trained under
the integrated program.
Ross Tuckey, chairman of the
local industrial development
corporation which recently in-
terviewed Hellyer in regard to
Centralia's future role, states:
"I don't think there's,too much
direct significance as far as
we here are concerned. It may
take some time —perhaps a
year or two --before the new
policies will affect Centralia."
Both Centralia and Clinton
have had some minor cutbacks
recently, but these decisions
had been made prior to the an-
nouncement in Ottawa.
The paper said Canada will
continue to offer assistance in
military training to both NATO
and newly independent coun-
tries, programs in which Cen-
tralia has been involved.
GODERICH
Under legislation before the
present session at Queen's Park
it will become mandatory for
county councils to appoint a
"public school consultative
committee" which may be di-
rected to report on establish-
ment of "county" school areas.
This inform ati on, which
caused some puzzlement in
Huron county council, was
brought to attention in a letter
from Hugh Grigg, former mayor
of Mimico, now secretary of the
Trustees' and Ratepayers' As-
sociation, who warned that the
proposed changes would "put
the counties more in the educa-
tion business."
He pointed out that the matter
would come up at the OEA
sessions in Toronto and added
"No doubt your council will
want to take some action before
July 1 (mentioned in several
sections of the new legislation),
Deputy Reeve Tom Howard,
of Ashfield, suggested that an
official from the department
of education be invited to come
up and clarify the situation.
Presenting the report of the
council's legislative and educa-
tional committee, he recom-
mended that membership be
taken this year in the Ontario
Education Association and that
the warden and clerk be dele-
gates to the convention,
"Under the proposed chan-
ges," the report stated, "it
would appear that county council
May become more involved in
the school situation."
Bill 53 before the Legislature
contains only one amendment to
the Secondary schools and
Boards of Education Act: (la)
Where any part or parts of a
township are not included in a
secondary school district, the
council of the county of which
the township forms apart shall,
by bylaw passed before the 1st
day of Ally, 1964, attach such
part or parts of the township
to a high school distriet in
accordance with subsection 1 of
section 8, and such bylaw shall
become effective, notwithstand-
ing Section 20, on the 1st day of
January, 1965.00
Hill 64 repeals Sections 18,
14 and 15 of the Public Schools
Act, Section 13 at present pro-
"This is a story which should
be told across the province",
Agriculture M in i ste r W. A.
Stewart said Saturday during
Harvey Langford Day at Lucan
arena.
He was lauding the "terrific"
Irith community spirit, which
now reflects from the artificial
ice in the arena, the showcases
in the auditorium and the water
in the new swimming pool.
"Really, it's an amazing
achievement", said Stewart re-
ferting to the community centre
and its facilities, all of which
have been erected and paid for
by volunteer help and fund-rais-
ing. Latest laurel is the pool
Which has been constructed and
paid for in one year.
Rt•SS Nichol, Brussels, dis-
trict deptitte, gearid master, paid
his official visit to EetteelOOF
Tuesday night. The thied degree
was conferred on William More
Mewl and Don Harris by the
Exeter team.
*
Finance dOitietittee of town
council met Monday night to
consider the 1964 Midget. No
decision was reached, accord.,
ing to Clerk C. V, Pickard,
Douglas Stone, son Of Mrs.
Roy Steed, Lucan, has been
elected preeident of the Prince
Albert (Sask.) Junior Chamber
Of deenitieede, He also is pit-
Vititiel Jaycee`'commission
lie's working with
the federal penitentiary in
Albert.
*
Harry XibeWetteryaedotriteet
here
for"
the Beek of Montreal here
foe tile paet feet years, has
been appointed manager Of d new
branch in Sedhueyi Date of his
trenefet has not beeti eetablielle
ed but he expedts to mole'
about a Montle
vides that the council of a town-
ship may pass a bylaw to unite
two or more school sections,
etc. Section 14 provides that
"where in the opinion of the
inspector a change in assess-
ment, population or otherwise
has so materially affected a
school section, that a readjust-
ment of boundaries thereof is
required .. . the council of the
municipality may pass a bylaw
for readjustment of the bound-
aries."
Under the present section15,
"the council of a county at the
request of a majority of the
councils of the townships in the
county for a readjustment of
the boundaries of school sec-
tions in the county shall appoint
arbitrators as provided by sec-
tion 48," etc.
Some new sections are as
follows:
13. (1) Every council of a
county shall appoint a public
school consultative committee
of three or five public school
ratepayers, and a public school
inspector, designated by the
minister, shall be secretary of
the committee but not entitled
to vote as a member.
(2) The council of a county
may direct the committee to
report on petitions for the es-
tablishment or enlargement of
county school areas and to Obe
thin. information and make re-
commendations in detail re-
garding (a) the desirability of
establishing or enlarging county
school areas, comprising two or
more Municipalities or parts
thereof, and (b) any other mat-
ters affecting public school edu-
cation in the county.
'Section 4 states that the re-
Commendations Of the commit-
tee are not binding Upon the
minister, the county council or
any of the public school boards
having jurisdiction in the
county.
(6) 'The council of a county
May, by bylaw passed before
the 1st day Of July in any year,
esteblish, as recommended by
the coriseltatilie committee, the
whole Ot any part of the county
as a county school area.
(11) There Shall be a board
of public echoOl trustees for
every county school aree, Which
shall be composed Of the eathe
Mettler Of trustees and elected
in the same manner AS boards
Of education under sections 55
and 56 of the SecOtideeygdlioole
end hoards of Education Act,
except that there 'shell be' he
appointed tru 6 tees,provided
that Where the 'number of true-
tees is fewer than five or Mete
that nine, the Minister on re-
qeest 'Of a Majority Of the cetin,,
ells of the municipalities eerie
tiethed may determine the
henther of trustees to be elected
for each intitheipaiity and their
terms of office,
SeemerneeeTieneeeeeeeifilleeelfeeleee
ed greetings on behalf of all
former Lucanites and visitors.
Interspersed with the unveil-
ing were several scenes from
the stage.
The presentation of an $827.-
33 cheque to Mrs. Irving Gib-
son for the swimming pool by
W. H. A. Thomas, MP for West
M id dl e sex, representing the
balance of the winter works sub-
sidle
The handing over of the chair-
manship of the arena to H. B.
Langford by Erwin Scott. (Mr.
Langford promised to continue
the "pay-as-you-go" policy of
the board).
Reeve Ivan Hearn presented
Mr. Scott with a life-member,-
ship card to attend any control
meeting.
Hon. W. A. Stewart, minis-
ter of agriculture, spoke at
length, on his attendance at the
Lucan High S c ha o 1 and the
friends he made there. He went
on to say that though today his
duties as agricultural repre-
sentative, take him far afield,
he is still proud to tell en-
quirers that he lives near Lu-
can.
The last scene on the stage
was a most impressive me-
morial service. At the back of
the stage were present and
former members of the arena
board. At the front was a table,
With a white cross flanked with
red roses. As each name of over
40 interested parties was read,
13-year-old Billy Haskett re-
trieved a rose which was later
giver: to a surviving relative.
The Rev. G. W. Sach closed
this impressive service.
Poliolving the dinner many
went &We to the ice surface to
see the Lticari pee wee team in
action.
As they Watched the small
fry, they probably wondered
which One would becoree ah-
Other Paul 6Ortliti and go on to
the Olympics sortie day.
PRESENTATION8
At 7:50 pm Mr. and Mrs. 11.
Langford and Mrs. and Mee.
Fred Langford were seated bee
Side a table On the ice eurfece,
They were surrounded by the
Pee Wee team to the West, the
MildritaY Monarchs to the south,
the Ltican-Ildettob COMbitieetO
the east and the bid Irish SIX
to the north,
Bob Murray was MC for the
tolleWing preeentetiorie
A portrait of Mr. Langford
by the Lucan Legion.
8it,riother portrait by the Irish
Luton tpiritihintt during Harvey Langford Day
Announcements 11
•.Churth xofidot 12
Coning Events t t t t12
gditOtig8# # 4 't V 4,. '4 't
NOM # # p
Pothinine Pacts oN PantieS
4 • ti444iLi4 6 4
Liman tifIttirif*#4 ta
SpOrta 1 6,
Want Ads i . 10,11
Saturday, 'Ledari honoted ite favorite Sporthitian, Hereby Lerigford; With 80000 celebration that
reflected the ebninitteitY spirit Which hee 'eroded perrearient 'mete:oriel tie itself in an teetie,
auditorium and pool. It Was A day during Which Liman literiored all the ,epertetieri which Harvey
14ngford exeinplifies"with the unveiling of a "'hell Of fatileo Shbleettee,Orie of the Many tributds,
above, was Made by Legion president and Irish frieinberr, shown with Mr-, and Mrs.
Latigferd, and lob Murray, Matter of teeertiertieta, e`e TeA 'photo
Nonfarm crises
-he enjoys day
Agriculture Minister
Stewart, who spent Most of
Saturday at Liman for tar-
Vey Langferdos day there,
confessed it WAS One of the
most enjoyable days lie/sput
In recently,
oislo one," he said With a
senile as he was leaving,
oinentioned tieba c no$ tiiilk
Marketing et threw eggs at
me."
Erwin Scott, who retired as
chairman and became an honor-
ary member of the board Satur-
day, briefly recalls the history
of the group which has sparked
the development and which he
headed for 18 years.
He remembers the banquet
back in Nov., 1996, when 60
men discussed the possibility of
erecting a playground for child-
tee. With booster nights, con-
certs, raffles and many other
events, money Was raised for
a much bigger project which has
developed WO a year-round
"playground" that puts larger
towns to shame.
Sod Was turned for the arena
Sept. 18, 1949, And the Official
Opening took place Sune 14,
1960.
The Centre, swimming pool
and playground, valued at well
Over a quarter Of a million, were
built Without borrowing a penny
from the bank or issuing a
Single debenture. Only debt re-
Chaining is a green one on the
pool.
Other than a grant from the
village, said Mr. Stott, the
complex has net cost the rate-
payers of the village any money
through their taxes,
The ladies committee raised
over 5Z2,506 during the varlets
campaigns.
Tn eptighecaasaecn lnhip
Of the tentre Saturday, Harvey
Langford endorsed the Scott
"We'll tOtitiritte to pay
as We go", he Said,